Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled


Joshua Tubbs
 

Hi all,

I'm a new Studio/creator user, and I'm having a problem where break
notes are doing nothing when checked--I have several that should play
carts.

Looking at the Creator help, it says I need to change the playlist
option to the Studio selection if Creator is creating my playlists. Is
this on the playlist format area, where NVDA, even with the addon, is
not reading text boxes correctly only saying "edit"?

I'm looking for a drop-down combobox though I can't find on this
dialog either. There is one but I don't think its the one I want.

I hope I have my NVDA settings set correctly but maybe there's
something I'm missing here.


 

Hi,
Do you have specific steps I can follow to reproduce this? If it is what I think it is, then I'll look into adding labels manually or forcing NVDA to look for them somehow. Also, is this fix something you need right now (as in this weekend)? That way I can do some research in the next few days or think of a time in June to work on this.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io <nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joshua Tubbs
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 12:34 PM
To: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io
Subject: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

Hi all,

I'm a new Studio/creator user, and I'm having a problem where break notes are doing nothing when checked--I have several that should play carts.

Looking at the Creator help, it says I need to change the playlist option to the Studio selection if Creator is creating my playlists. Is this on the playlist format area, where NVDA, even with the addon, is not reading text boxes correctly only saying "edit"?

I'm looking for a drop-down combobox though I can't find on this dialog either. There is one but I don't think its the one I want.

I hope I have my NVDA settings set correctly but maybe there's something I'm missing here.


Joshua Tubbs
 

Well yes, it would be helpful ASAP because I am creating playlists in
creator with break notes that are being bipassed because I don't have
this option set for studio playlists.

A break note should do as specified right? I have a break note to play
cart shift 2 and specify when I want to play it with a break note.
Despite the note being checked it does not play when it should. I want
to see if that studio playlist option is set correctly.

For the record there are a lot of edit boxes in studio that also
aren't labeled in options. Why NVDA doesn't have a method to find and
read these is beyond me. Many devs don't care about labels. Jaws does
better in this regard, though I don't have Hartgen's scripts for SPL
yet.

On 5/14/19, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Do you have specific steps I can follow to reproduce this? If it is what I
think it is, then I'll look into adding labels manually or forcing NVDA to
look for them somehow. Also, is this fix something you need right now (as in
this weekend)? That way I can do some research in the next few days or think
of a time in June to work on this.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io <nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Joshua Tubbs
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 12:34 PM
To: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io
Subject: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

Hi all,

I'm a new Studio/creator user, and I'm having a problem where break notes
are doing nothing when checked--I have several that should play carts.

Looking at the Creator help, it says I need to change the playlist option to
the Studio selection if Creator is creating my playlists. Is this on the
playlist format area, where NVDA, even with the addon, is not reading text
boxes correctly only saying "edit"?

I'm looking for a drop-down combobox though I can't find on this dialog
either. There is one but I don't think its the one I want.

I hope I have my NVDA settings set correctly but maybe there's something I'm
missing here.







 

Hi,
Unlabeled edit fields: partly caused by Delphi toolkit in use. Even though Ross may have added labels for these, if the toolkit doesn't expose this correctly, we need to resort to hacks such as providing labels ourselves or going into hacks.
In the past, I resolved some of these by letting NVDA scrape the screen (emulating screen review), which doesn't work for all cases. More recently, I've been adding labels for some modules, but that will involve making sure each control is distinguishable from one another. UI Automation might not solve this completely, as it may involve upgrading the Delphi toolkit in use, according to Ross.
As for the immediate issue at hand: let's get down to business: I need exact steps to reproduce the problem, including keyboard commands you're using. That way I can find something to focus on and think about for a while.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io <nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joshua Tubbs
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 1:51 PM
To: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

Well yes, it would be helpful ASAP because I am creating playlists in creator with break notes that are being bipassed because I don't have this option set for studio playlists.

A break note should do as specified right? I have a break note to play cart shift 2 and specify when I want to play it with a break note.
Despite the note being checked it does not play when it should. I want to see if that studio playlist option is set correctly.

For the record there are a lot of edit boxes in studio that also aren't labeled in options. Why NVDA doesn't have a method to find and read these is beyond me. Many devs don't care about labels. Jaws does better in this regard, though I don't have Hartgen's scripts for SPL yet.





On 5/14/19, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Do you have specific steps I can follow to reproduce this? If it is
what I think it is, then I'll look into adding labels manually or
forcing NVDA to look for them somehow. Also, is this fix something you
need right now (as in this weekend)? That way I can do some research
in the next few days or think of a time in June to work on this.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io <nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io> On
Behalf Of Joshua Tubbs
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 12:34 PM
To: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io
Subject: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

Hi all,

I'm a new Studio/creator user, and I'm having a problem where break
notes are doing nothing when checked--I have several that should play carts.

Looking at the Creator help, it says I need to change the playlist
option to the Studio selection if Creator is creating my playlists. Is
this on the playlist format area, where NVDA, even with the addon, is
not reading text boxes correctly only saying "edit"?

I'm looking for a drop-down combobox though I can't find on this
dialog either. There is one but I don't think its the one I want.

I hope I have my NVDA settings set correctly but maybe there's
something I'm missing here.







Warin Cédric
 

Hello, I also feel some concern of editing areas that are not LaBell

correctly at the creator level.

If a person could look to make an addont or implement on existing addon?

Thank you very much

 

De : Joshua Tubbs
Envoyé le :mardi 14 mai 2019 22:51
À : nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io
Objet :Re: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

 

Well yes, it would be helpful ASAP because I am creating playlists in

creator with break notes that are being bipassed because I don't have

this option set for studio playlists.

 

A break note should do as specified right? I have a break note to play

cart shift 2 and specify when I want to play it with a break note.

Despite the note being checked it does not play when it should. I want

to see if that studio playlist option is set correctly.

 

For the record there are a lot of edit boxes in studio that also

aren't labeled in options. Why NVDA doesn't have a method to find and

read these is beyond me. Many devs don't care about labels. Jaws does

better in this regard, though I don't have Hartgen's scripts for SPL

yet.

 

 

 

 

 

On 5/14/19, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

> Hi,

> Do you have specific steps I can follow to reproduce this? If it is what I

> think it is, then I'll look into adding labels manually or forcing NVDA to

> look for them somehow. Also, is this fix something you need right now (as in

> this weekend)? That way I can do some research in the next few days or think

> of a time in June to work on this.

> Cheers,

> Joseph

> -----Original Message-----

> From: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io <nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io> On Behalf Of

> Joshua Tubbs

> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 12:34 PM

> To: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io

> Subject: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

> Hi all,

> I'm a new Studio/creator user, and I'm having a problem where break notes

> are doing nothing when checked--I have several that should play carts.

> Looking at the Creator help, it says I need to change the playlist option to

> the Studio selection if Creator is creating my playlists. Is this on the

> playlist format area, where NVDA, even with the addon, is not reading text

> boxes correctly only saying "edit"?

> I'm looking for a drop-down combobox though I can't find on this dialog

> either. There is one but I don't think its the one I want.

> I hope I have my NVDA settings set correctly but maybe there's something I'm

> missing here.

>

 

 

 


 

Hi,

Yep, that’s something I might do very soon, provided I get some more concrete instructions as to how to reproduce this.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io <nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io> On Behalf Of Warin Cédric
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 5:09 PM
To: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

 

Hello, I also feel some concern of editing areas that are not LaBell

correctly at the creator level.

If a person could look to make an addont or implement on existing addon?

Thank you very much

 

De : Joshua Tubbs
Envoyé le :mardi 14 mai 2019 22:51
À : nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io
Objet :Re: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

 

Well yes, it would be helpful ASAP because I am creating playlists in

creator with break notes that are being bipassed because I don't have

this option set for studio playlists.

 

A break note should do as specified right? I have a break note to play

cart shift 2 and specify when I want to play it with a break note.

Despite the note being checked it does not play when it should. I want

to see if that studio playlist option is set correctly.

 

For the record there are a lot of edit boxes in studio that also

aren't labeled in options. Why NVDA doesn't have a method to find and

read these is beyond me. Many devs don't care about labels. Jaws does

better in this regard, though I don't have Hartgen's scripts for SPL

yet.

 

 

 

 

 

On 5/14/19, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

> Hi,

> Do you have specific steps I can follow to reproduce this? If it is what I

> think it is, then I'll look into adding labels manually or forcing NVDA to

> look for them somehow. Also, is this fix something you need right now (as in

> this weekend)? That way I can do some research in the next few days or think

> of a time in June to work on this.

> Cheers,

> Joseph

> -----Original Message-----

> From: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io <nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io> On Behalf Of

> Joshua Tubbs

> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 12:34 PM

> To: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io

> Subject: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

> Hi all,

> I'm a new Studio/creator user, and I'm having a problem where break notes

> are doing nothing when checked--I have several that should play carts.

> Looking at the Creator help, it says I need to change the playlist option to

> the Studio selection if Creator is creating my playlists. Is this on the

> playlist format area, where NVDA, even with the addon, is not reading text

> boxes correctly only saying "edit"?

> I'm looking for a drop-down combobox though I can't find on this dialog

> either. There is one but I don't think its the one I want.

> I hope I have my NVDA settings set correctly but maybe there's something I'm

> missing here.

>

 

 

 


 

Hi everyone,

I have located what Josh was looking at – Creator, go to rotations/track list/a bunch of buttons, press right arrow to go to Playlist format and tab around the property sheet.

I must say this is the most incredibly inaccessible Delphi toolkit screen I’ve ever seen; as far as accessibility representation and screen reader interaction is concerned, StationPlaylist Creator is, for a lack of nice terms, “destined for accessibility hell”. All I can say regarding the overall organization and user experience of this app is, as far as accessibility is concerned, for a lack of better word, “what the heck”.

What I’m about to say below should be taken with a grain of salt: I might not be giving you the most accurate picture. But then again, I’m here to serve you, so the technical overview I give might be a bit hard for some to understand, but it is something you’ll get a chance to see from time to time and won’t see elsewhere (it is also an advantage you have because I think Brian does not talk about what’s going on behind the scenes; apologies up front if Brian does provide technical overviews, but his SPL list is a closed one).

Technical: yes, my hypothesis was correct: Delphi and its incredibly bad MSAA (Microsoft Active Accessibility)/IAccessible representation. At first glance, it isn’t quite easy to “add” labels for unlabeled edit fields in this screen, but it might be possible to provide a hacky fix, something I much prefer not to do so (there might be a short-term fix, but in the long-term, it isn’t feasible unless Ross revisits viability of Delphi toolkit from accessibility point of view).

A few things about these fields:

  • They are Delphi edit fields (class name of TEdit).
  • In addition to window class name, another unique marker of controls is control ID. The issue is that control ID’s change whenever Creator is launched, making them hard to distinguish from one another (see solution 1).
  • The label is not really next to each other – visually, they are, but as far as screen scraping is concerned, it isn’t (see solution 2).
  • Two different controls are used for labels and associated controls, something I’ve seen before but requires care when going through object navigation emulation (see solution 3).

 

Possible solutions:

  1. Add labels manually: short-term, yes; long-term, no. In order for this to be effective, controls must be distinguishable even when Creator restarts. Because control ID’s change each time Creator starts, it won’t work.
  2. Screen scraping: no due to different versions of NVDA, Creator, Windows release, video card in use, graphics driver, and screen resolution in use. I just tried this approach by borrowing the logic used in Studio’s options controls but it doesn’t work in Creator’s options controls.
  3. Object navigation emulation: short-term, yes; long-term, no. Basically, unlabeled controls are child objects of options property sheets as far as accessibility representation is concerned, so labels could be added for each control. There are two problems: mixture of labeled and unlabeled controls, and new Creator releases may break this solution due to addition or removal of options.

 

As for what Brian did with JAWS: I would imagine this was done either through screen scraping or asking for lower level information. Screen scraping is now a more risky move for JAWS because of Windows 10 and potential for this to fail due to possibility of Vispero video driver breaking in a JAWS update. Low-level information gathering might or might not work due to the fact that these controls are wrapped within a GUI toolkit.

 

I rarely say this on this forum, but I’m giving up on this whole affair. I’m shocked, angry, and disappointed. Never before I come across such an incredibly (and horribly) inaccessible, badly organized, and heart-breaking experience as SPL Creator’s options controls. Compare to this, Studio’s options controls are much better – at least they have easy ways of labeling things here and there.

By the way, Narrator also fails to notice labels for most of the edit fields present on this screen, but that’s expected partly because Narrator does not support MSAA in older apps fully.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io <nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io> On Behalf Of Warin Cédric
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 5:09 PM
To: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

 

Hello, I also feel some concern of editing areas that are not LaBell

correctly at the creator level.

If a person could look to make an addont or implement on existing addon?

Thank you very much

 

De : Joshua Tubbs
Envoyé le :mardi 14 mai 2019 22:51
À : nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io
Objet :Re: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

 

Well yes, it would be helpful ASAP because I am creating playlists in

creator with break notes that are being bipassed because I don't have

this option set for studio playlists.

 

A break note should do as specified right? I have a break note to play

cart shift 2 and specify when I want to play it with a break note.

Despite the note being checked it does not play when it should. I want

to see if that studio playlist option is set correctly.

 

For the record there are a lot of edit boxes in studio that also

aren't labeled in options. Why NVDA doesn't have a method to find and

read these is beyond me. Many devs don't care about labels. Jaws does

better in this regard, though I don't have Hartgen's scripts for SPL

yet.

 

 

 

 

 

On 5/14/19, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

> Hi,

> Do you have specific steps I can follow to reproduce this? If it is what I

> think it is, then I'll look into adding labels manually or forcing NVDA to

> look for them somehow. Also, is this fix something you need right now (as in

> this weekend)? That way I can do some research in the next few days or think

> of a time in June to work on this.

> Cheers,

> Joseph

> -----Original Message-----

> From: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io <nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io> On Behalf Of

> Joshua Tubbs

> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 12:34 PM

> To: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io

> Subject: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

> Hi all,

> I'm a new Studio/creator user, and I'm having a problem where break notes

> are doing nothing when checked--I have several that should play carts.

> Looking at the Creator help, it says I need to change the playlist option to

> the Studio selection if Creator is creating my playlists. Is this on the

> playlist format area, where NVDA, even with the addon, is not reading text

> boxes correctly only saying "edit"?

> I'm looking for a drop-down combobox though I can't find on this dialog

> either. There is one but I don't think its the one I want.

> I hope I have my NVDA settings set correctly but maybe there's something I'm

> missing here.

>

 

 

 


Justin Harris
 

 Hi Joseph,

Have you passed this info on to Ross? I agree, studio is amazing as far as accessibility. Creator... not so much. We're able to get through the basics, but some of the fine tuning can be a bit harder especially when a lot of those controls are not propperly labeled.


El 14/5/2019 a las 23:40, Joseph Lee escribió:

Hi everyone,

I have located what Josh was looking at – Creator, go to rotations/track list/a bunch of buttons, press right arrow to go to Playlist format and tab around the property sheet.

I must say this is the most incredibly inaccessible Delphi toolkit screen I’ve ever seen; as far as accessibility representation and screen reader interaction is concerned, StationPlaylist Creator is, for a lack of nice terms, “destined for accessibility hell”. All I can say regarding the overall organization and user experience of this app is, as far as accessibility is concerned, for a lack of better word, “what the heck”.

What I’m about to say below should be taken with a grain of salt: I might not be giving you the most accurate picture. But then again, I’m here to serve you, so the technical overview I give might be a bit hard for some to understand, but it is something you’ll get a chance to see from time to time and won’t see elsewhere (it is also an advantage you have because I think Brian does not talk about what’s going on behind the scenes; apologies up front if Brian does provide technical overviews, but his SPL list is a closed one).

Technical: yes, my hypothesis was correct: Delphi and its incredibly bad MSAA (Microsoft Active Accessibility)/IAccessible representation. At first glance, it isn’t quite easy to “add” labels for unlabeled edit fields in this screen, but it might be possible to provide a hacky fix, something I much prefer not to do so (there might be a short-term fix, but in the long-term, it isn’t feasible unless Ross revisits viability of Delphi toolkit from accessibility point of view).

A few things about these fields:

  • They are Delphi edit fields (class name of TEdit).
  • In addition to window class name, another unique marker of controls is control ID. The issue is that control ID’s change whenever Creator is launched, making them hard to distinguish from one another (see solution 1).
  • The label is not really next to each other – visually, they are, but as far as screen scraping is concerned, it isn’t (see solution 2).
  • Two different controls are used for labels and associated controls, something I’ve seen before but requires care when going through object navigation emulation (see solution 3).

 

Possible solutions:

  1. Add labels manually: short-term, yes; long-term, no. In order for this to be effective, controls must be distinguishable even when Creator restarts. Because control ID’s change each time Creator starts, it won’t work.
  2. Screen scraping: no due to different versions of NVDA, Creator, Windows release, video card in use, graphics driver, and screen resolution in use. I just tried this approach by borrowing the logic used in Studio’s options controls but it doesn’t work in Creator’s options controls.
  3. Object navigation emulation: short-term, yes; long-term, no. Basically, unlabeled controls are child objects of options property sheets as far as accessibility representation is concerned, so labels could be added for each control. There are two problems: mixture of labeled and unlabeled controls, and new Creator releases may break this solution due to addition or removal of options.

 

As for what Brian did with JAWS: I would imagine this was done either through screen scraping or asking for lower level information. Screen scraping is now a more risky move for JAWS because of Windows 10 and potential for this to fail due to possibility of Vispero video driver breaking in a JAWS update. Low-level information gathering might or might not work due to the fact that these controls are wrapped within a GUI toolkit.

 

I rarely say this on this forum, but I’m giving up on this whole affair. I’m shocked, angry, and disappointed. Never before I come across such an incredibly (and horribly) inaccessible, badly organized, and heart-breaking experience as SPL Creator’s options controls. Compare to this, Studio’s options controls are much better – at least they have easy ways of labeling things here and there.

By the way, Narrator also fails to notice labels for most of the edit fields present on this screen, but that’s expected partly because Narrator does not support MSAA in older apps fully.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io <nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io> On Behalf Of Warin Cédric
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 5:09 PM
To: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

 

Hello, I also feel some concern of editing areas that are not LaBell

correctly at the creator level.

If a person could look to make an addont or implement on existing addon?

Thank you very much

 

De : Joshua Tubbs
Envoyé le :mardi 14 mai 2019 22:51
À : nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io
Objet :Re: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

 

Well yes, it would be helpful ASAP because I am creating playlists in

creator with break notes that are being bipassed because I don't have

this option set for studio playlists.

 

A break note should do as specified right? I have a break note to play

cart shift 2 and specify when I want to play it with a break note.

Despite the note being checked it does not play when it should. I want

to see if that studio playlist option is set correctly.

 

For the record there are a lot of edit boxes in studio that also

aren't labeled in options. Why NVDA doesn't have a method to find and

read these is beyond me. Many devs don't care about labels. Jaws does

better in this regard, though I don't have Hartgen's scripts for SPL

yet.

 

 

 

 

 

On 5/14/19, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

> Hi,

> Do you have specific steps I can follow to reproduce this? If it is what I

> think it is, then I'll look into adding labels manually or forcing NVDA to

> look for them somehow. Also, is this fix something you need right now (as in

> this weekend)? That way I can do some research in the next few days or think

> of a time in June to work on this.

> Cheers,

> Joseph

> -----Original Message-----

> From: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io <nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io> On Behalf Of

> Joshua Tubbs

> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 12:34 PM

> To: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io

> Subject: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

> Hi all,

> I'm a new Studio/creator user, and I'm having a problem where break notes

> are doing nothing when checked--I have several that should play carts.

> Looking at the Creator help, it says I need to change the playlist option to

> the Studio selection if Creator is creating my playlists. Is this on the

> playlist format area, where NVDA, even with the addon, is not reading text

> boxes correctly only saying "edit"?

> I'm looking for a drop-down combobox though I can't find on this dialog

> either. There is one but I don't think its the one I want.

> I hope I have my NVDA settings set correctly but maybe there's something I'm

> missing here.

>

 

 

 


 

Hi,

I do plan to pass my frustrations to Ross when I have sufficiently recovered from college finals (next week at the earliest).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io <nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io> On Behalf Of Justin Harris
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 5:37 AM
To: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

 

 Hi Joseph,

Have you passed this info on to Ross? I agree, studio is amazing as far as accessibility. Creator... not so much. We're able to get through the basics, but some of the fine tuning can be a bit harder especially when a lot of those controls are not propperly labeled.

 

El 14/5/2019 a las 23:40, Joseph Lee escribió:

Hi everyone,

I have located what Josh was looking at – Creator, go to rotations/track list/a bunch of buttons, press right arrow to go to Playlist format and tab around the property sheet.

I must say this is the most incredibly inaccessible Delphi toolkit screen I’ve ever seen; as far as accessibility representation and screen reader interaction is concerned, StationPlaylist Creator is, for a lack of nice terms, “destined for accessibility hell”. All I can say regarding the overall organization and user experience of this app is, as far as accessibility is concerned, for a lack of better word, “what the heck”.

What I’m about to say below should be taken with a grain of salt: I might not be giving you the most accurate picture. But then again, I’m here to serve you, so the technical overview I give might be a bit hard for some to understand, but it is something you’ll get a chance to see from time to time and won’t see elsewhere (it is also an advantage you have because I think Brian does not talk about what’s going on behind the scenes; apologies up front if Brian does provide technical overviews, but his SPL list is a closed one).

Technical: yes, my hypothesis was correct: Delphi and its incredibly bad MSAA (Microsoft Active Accessibility)/IAccessible representation. At first glance, it isn’t quite easy to “add” labels for unlabeled edit fields in this screen, but it might be possible to provide a hacky fix, something I much prefer not to do so (there might be a short-term fix, but in the long-term, it isn’t feasible unless Ross revisits viability of Delphi toolkit from accessibility point of view).

A few things about these fields:

  • They are Delphi edit fields (class name of TEdit).
  • In addition to window class name, another unique marker of controls is control ID. The issue is that control ID’s change whenever Creator is launched, making them hard to distinguish from one another (see solution 1).
  • The label is not really next to each other – visually, they are, but as far as screen scraping is concerned, it isn’t (see solution 2).
  • Two different controls are used for labels and associated controls, something I’ve seen before but requires care when going through object navigation emulation (see solution 3).

 

Possible solutions:

  1. Add labels manually: short-term, yes; long-term, no. In order for this to be effective, controls must be distinguishable even when Creator restarts. Because control ID’s change each time Creator starts, it won’t work.
  2. Screen scraping: no due to different versions of NVDA, Creator, Windows release, video card in use, graphics driver, and screen resolution in use. I just tried this approach by borrowing the logic used in Studio’s options controls but it doesn’t work in Creator’s options controls.
  3. Object navigation emulation: short-term, yes; long-term, no. Basically, unlabeled controls are child objects of options property sheets as far as accessibility representation is concerned, so labels could be added for each control. There are two problems: mixture of labeled and unlabeled controls, and new Creator releases may break this solution due to addition or removal of options.

 

As for what Brian did with JAWS: I would imagine this was done either through screen scraping or asking for lower level information. Screen scraping is now a more risky move for JAWS because of Windows 10 and potential for this to fail due to possibility of Vispero video driver breaking in a JAWS update. Low-level information gathering might or might not work due to the fact that these controls are wrapped within a GUI toolkit.

 

I rarely say this on this forum, but I’m giving up on this whole affair. I’m shocked, angry, and disappointed. Never before I come across such an incredibly (and horribly) inaccessible, badly organized, and heart-breaking experience as SPL Creator’s options controls. Compare to this, Studio’s options controls are much better – at least they have easy ways of labeling things here and there.

By the way, Narrator also fails to notice labels for most of the edit fields present on this screen, but that’s expected partly because Narrator does not support MSAA in older apps fully.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io <nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io> On Behalf Of Warin Cédric
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 5:09 PM
To: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

 

Hello, I also feel some concern of editing areas that are not LaBell

correctly at the creator level.

If a person could look to make an addont or implement on existing addon?

Thank you very much

 

De : Joshua Tubbs
Envoyé le :mardi 14 mai 2019 22:51
À : nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io
Objet :Re: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

 

Well yes, it would be helpful ASAP because I am creating playlists in

creator with break notes that are being bipassed because I don't have

this option set for studio playlists.

 

A break note should do as specified right? I have a break note to play

cart shift 2 and specify when I want to play it with a break note.

Despite the note being checked it does not play when it should. I want

to see if that studio playlist option is set correctly.

 

For the record there are a lot of edit boxes in studio that also

aren't labeled in options. Why NVDA doesn't have a method to find and

read these is beyond me. Many devs don't care about labels. Jaws does

better in this regard, though I don't have Hartgen's scripts for SPL

yet.

 

 

 

 

 

On 5/14/19, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

> Hi,

> Do you have specific steps I can follow to reproduce this? If it is what I

> think it is, then I'll look into adding labels manually or forcing NVDA to

> look for them somehow. Also, is this fix something you need right now (as in

> this weekend)? That way I can do some research in the next few days or think

> of a time in June to work on this.

> Cheers,

> Joseph

> -----Original Message-----

> From: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io <nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io> On Behalf Of

> Joshua Tubbs

> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 12:34 PM

> To: nvda-spl@nvda-spl.groups.io

> Subject: [nvda-spl] Edit areas in Creator options unlabeled

> Hi all,

> I'm a new Studio/creator user, and I'm having a problem where break notes

> are doing nothing when checked--I have several that should play carts.

> Looking at the Creator help, it says I need to change the playlist option to

> the Studio selection if Creator is creating my playlists. Is this on the

> playlist format area, where NVDA, even with the addon, is not reading text

> boxes correctly only saying "edit"?

> I'm looking for a drop-down combobox though I can't find on this dialog

> either. There is one but I don't think its the one I want.

> I hope I have my NVDA settings set correctly but maybe there's something I'm

> missing here.

>